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Post by Tractorpull on Dec 5, 2018 10:49:23 GMT -6
TESS VALMORE
This is an article that I never thought I would have to write and I don’t expect it will be well received. It has become necessary, in order to protect the Hall Of Fame, to add another requirement for entry. To the 100 fight and 60% win ratio we are going to have to add “competition It has become necessary because of the number of fighters who are building record by fighting “easy opponents” This should come as no surprise as we have been complaining for months about non-competitive bouts
The women who are in the Hall Of Fame now didn’t depend on easy fights. The fewer managers and they put they members in tough fights in order to get a title shot. For the first couple years, there wasn’t even rankings. In many cases, it was the Commissioner who chose the bouts. There were not that many fighters as compared to now. There were a lot fewer stables and no mega stables like today. A big stable in those days was around six. Some hopefuls were barred from entering the FCBA. Others with poor records were eliminated or simply didn’t get fights.
Times have changed. Now we have many more stables. There are stables with as many as fifteen members. In fact, there are eight stables with twelve or more members and two more at ten. A number of stables are in the eight member range. As new stables were admitted, the much glorified “more the merrier” theory took place. The Victoria Secret and SI were suddenly discovered and models flooded in. To add to the number of potential fighters, members of the BBU were suddenly inundating the FCBA. Managers added to it by scheduling fights with someone not seen before, mainly in hopes of an easy win. The result is there are more fighters than can possibly be scheduled. Some fighters went into extreme decline or hadn’t had a fight in years, but there is no method of retiring them. They are out there and there is nothing to keep a manager from scheduling them. The result of all this is easy fights
The majority of members fight decent schedules. but there is a significant minority building records fighting losers or newbies. A manager will schedule a new fighter. She will lose (the mast majority of new fighters brought in recently, lose their first fight) and won’t be seen again until some other manager looking for a win six months to a year later finds and schedules them. It is not difficult to find an “easy opponent” and don’t give me dictum that there are no easy fights. There are and that’s why we have fighters who have lost ten in a row or haven’t won a fight in years Want an example? One manager scheduled a title match for the champ against an opponent ranked at 162
Tractorpull will simply not allow a fighter who fights an easy schedule against losers to enter the Hall Of Fame. The members who are already there, deserve better. Who will decide easy fights? Tractorpull will. It’s not difficult. Admit it. Managers know who they are. We have fighters with extraordinary win ratios, but when you look at the records, they have mainly fought losers. We have fighters now with big winning streaks who rarely fight someone in the top twenty-five or thirty or even the top fifty. Of course, no manager is going to admit scheduling “easy fight" and managers tend to stick together.
When a fighter hits the 50 fight level with a 60% win ratio, we will forecast their chances of getting into the Hall based on opponents. There should be no surprise when we deny entry to a stable member.
If you have a problem with what we just said, Send your complaints to smackey@boxingworld.edu.gov.org.net.com
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Post by girlsfriday on Dec 5, 2018 14:14:52 GMT -6
Honestly I can't believe I am saying this but I agree with Tess, competition is something that should be a massive factor in the Hall of Fame selection, I mean you can't have someone feeding off new fighters and the bottom 100 put into the Hall.
though ironically I am not a fan of the whole 100 fights bit, especially that I guess JMD fights won't be classed as fights by Tractorpull, meaning someone like Kate Upton could miss out conceivably as she has a good amount of JMD fights making up her record.
I mean that would be ridiculous! Kate is one of the most popular fighters in the the FCBA, one of the most decorated, so it would be a shame if she missed out due to that.
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Post by Tractorpull on Dec 5, 2018 15:15:02 GMT -6
TESS VALMORE
The rule against JMD/D was put in years ago. Kate and her manager are or should be well aware of the rule. If she chooses to fight at JMDD, that is not our problem. The decision is hers. Popularity is not considered in qualifying for the Hall
As far as I know there are actually no rules to a JMD/D fight. If you go back to the early days almost anything went and as far as I know there have not been any changes. The fact the JMD/D fights seem a little more conventional today does not negate that the rules or lack of them, have not changed
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Post by The Dollhouse on Dec 5, 2018 15:19:12 GMT -6
Agreed about taking 'competition level' into account.
The problem is that 'competition' is not a strict and defined measurement like "60%" or "100 fights", so the decision is going to be very subjective, and can easily anger some people and be seen as 'unfair' in some cases compared to others.
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Post by holloway on Dec 5, 2018 15:21:33 GMT -6
Agreed about taking 'competition level' into account. The problem is that 'competition' is not a strict and defined measurement like "60%" or "100 fights", so the decision is going to be very subjective, and can easily anger some people and be seen as 'unfair' in some cases compared to others. I agree. Competition should be considered, there just should be a strict well-defined objective method of determining the competition level. |
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Post by Lookout! Boxing on Dec 5, 2018 18:57:10 GMT -6
We would like to take a moment to state that we fully support the added requirement for the Hall of Fame. We have always been a proponent of increasing the level of competition and while an "easy" fight may be interesting at times due to wanting to promote a new fighter or get your fighter back on track, they should likely be the exception rather than the rule. While easier fighters may be needed, especially as a fighter is starting out, they should gradually be increasing their level of competition until they rise to a level appropriate with their experience.
However, we will disagree vehemently about the idea that JMD/JMDD fights are to be exempt from a fighter's record and not worthy of consideration. Pretending the fights don't exist is not a viable situation in my opinion, regardless of how one might feel about the fight specialty. They are still boxing matches and should be considered, but that is simply how we feel and that's likely because we have Kate Upton on our record. We can see she's already been mentioned and rightfully so as we have worked hard with her to make sure she is one of the best welterweights in the world. However, it is unlikely that she will ever receive the accolades that others might in the division because she chooses to participate in JMDD.
To be clear, it doesn't change our match-making plans one bit. If Kate wants to participate in a JMDD match and odds are she will again here soon, then she's earned the right to pick matches that interest her, especially if we feel it'll interest the fans as well. It doesn't change any of our strategies in fact as we have tried to always schedule the most fun, competitive and exciting matches that we can. We'll continue to do that going forward.
In the meantime, we completely endorse this requirement for the Hall of Fame and Tractorpull. While this won't be universally approved, this is fair notice to any manager to change their strategy if their goal is to get into the Hall of Fame. But, the Hall of Fame should be filled with the absolute best that the FCBA has to offer and if this will help keep out anybody who isn't deserving, then we are 100 percent on board. We'll look forward to continuing to work with Tractorpull to see that the legends continue to get recognized as they should!!
-Lookout! Boxing
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Post by Ginny on Dec 5, 2018 19:45:42 GMT -6
I have a question - or three - about the origin of the 100 fight requirement. Wasn't this something that was established back in the Golden Era of the FCBA (simguy)? We have (I think) fewer fights now than we had back in the day when simguy would rip off 20-25 fights/week (1000/year?)
Perhaps, assuming I'm right, it makes more sense to lower the number of wins... but raise the percentage required.
As far as "rules" for JMD/D fights... isn't that a factor of HOW RESULTS are generated... (using the same methodology as regular fights) so having the "same" rules for resolving the outcome?
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Post by Tractorpull on Dec 5, 2018 21:56:57 GMT -6
Tess Valmore
First to Lookout. I didn’t say that JMD fights didn’t exist, I said they didn’t count. They don’t qualify. There is a difference there. You and Upton know the guidelines. If she chooses fo fight at JMDD, that's her decision, so don’t blame me if she doesn’t get in the Hall.
If you want to look at it practically, Upton has won 89% of her JMDD fights and 74% of her conventional fights. She has had 51 conventional fights at the age of 26. This year, she has had ten conventional fights. At that rate, barring any collapse in her fighting skills or slow down in scheduling, she should be able to make the Hall by the time she is 31. Right now, it does not look to me like she is going to have a problem
To Miss Ginny It is true that in the early days there were many more fights than today but by later years of the previous decade the fights had slowed down. I previously pointed out that there were more fights in a 2018 period than there were than in the same period in 2009. At the time the Hall was established, we felt that a fighter with a busy schedule would take around ten years to make the 100. Now we have fighters who are getting 15-22 bouts a year. Some can make the 100 limit in four to five years. if they keep fighting at their current rate. I wouldn’t change the 100 fight limit. Upping win percentage would be desirable, but it wouldn’t be fair to the current crop. It will remain at present rate
When we spoke of rules, in the early days there weren’t any. Fighters fought rolling around in the ring like wrestlers with a weak warning from the ref. The fights have become more conventional, but there is no prohibition from going back to the old days.
This is a fantasy world. Fights are won in the ring and are as described by those who witnessed the bouts. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say “how results are generated”
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Big Bad Gena Lee Nolin
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Post by Big Bad Gena Lee Nolin on Dec 6, 2018 7:24:21 GMT -6
211 fights ... 130 wins ... winning percentage 61% ...86 knockouts (and a lot inside three rounds)!
Quality of opponents? Ali Landry a dozen times! Theron, the "so called GOAT" ... over a dozen times!!!
What a crock!
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Post by Vassago on Dec 6, 2018 9:35:14 GMT -6
We believe HoF eligibility will become moot once Panettiere, Carter, Strahovski and Hudgens are included. Most of the these much maligned models compete in too many JMD fights anyway and the added critieria makes it pretty much impossible for anyone else to join in other than the four mentioned above. Mary Elizabeth Winstead would have to win a record number to even be considered as outside shot. Besides we don't think managers book fights while trying to reach for the Hall of Fame. It's become too elitist already but that was the point all along. Kate Upton is the most popular fighter on this board given the viewing numbers and we don't think she needs a spot in the Hall to justify her place in this universe.
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 6, 2018 12:06:18 GMT -6
I generally agree with this change of requirements. Clearly, it's not easy to measure "competitiveness" as an objective standard, so for the time being, Tractorpull's announcement of "I know it when I see it" will do the job. In many cases it should be a pretty straightforward decision. We'll see what happens when a trickier choice comes up.
I'm actually for adding up JMD fights into the hall of fame stats, if and when the fighter in question meets the competition threshold. A Kate Upton would surely make that cut.
I don't think it's fair to label the hall of fame "elitist"...it is about the elite after all, and I'd rather see it limited in its current shape. The Gena Lee Nolin controversy aside (in which, fair enough, both sides have a point!), I think everybody in the history of our league who deserves to get in so far is actually a member. There are no other obvious snubs, I guess.
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Post by Vassago on Dec 6, 2018 13:29:59 GMT -6
Given how quickly Bella Thorne and Avril Lavigne are racking up fights we guess that's the chief and perhaps only reason reason Tess decided to adjust the rules. She can probably see what Mr. V sees right now. In three-four years time Bella and Avril would have been eligible for the Hall and that's a big no no given some of the comments especially aimed at Avril. So, the Gena Lee Nolin snub club will only get bigger.
Competitiveness changes over time though, beating Jessica Biel in 2009 isn't the same as beating her in 2017. Will Tess even take that under consideration? We don't believe you can keep an eye on the level of fighter's greatness through time. When an elite opponent becomes a mere punchbag? Just look at how much praise Larry Holmes got for beating Ali.
But that's all moot, we don't see anyone joining the Hall other than the four girls mentioned in our previous post. Even Upton will struggle to make it given Tess neverending JMDD wrath.
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Post by Tractorpull on Dec 6, 2018 17:07:34 GMT -6
Tess Valmore
As a matter of fact we do take into consideration “competitive changes over time” if you ever looked at our predictions you should know that. I don’t know how you got the idea I was a big fan of Biel. You have mentioned that several times. Seems to me that when you read, you only see what your pre-conceived ideas allow you to see
Once again you are totally wrong The reason we adjusted the rules were not Thorne or Lavigne, but Kristen Stewart.
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Post by The Grand Wizard on Dec 6, 2018 21:06:27 GMT -6
And, again, Tess, no need to worry about K-Stew. She's not getting a hundred fights. Nobody at Front Street is.
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Post by Vassago on Dec 7, 2018 11:05:22 GMT -6
Tess Valmore As a matter of fact we do take into consideration “competitive changes over time” if you ever looked at our predictions you should know that. I don’t know how you got the idea I was a big fan of Biel. You have mentioned that several times. Seems to me that when you read, you only see what your pre-conceived ideas allow you to see Once again you are totally wrong The reason we adjusted the rules were not Thorne or Lavigne, but Kristen Stewart.
Well, there were these numerous "I don't bet against Biel" predictions. Only she and Righetti enjoyed that kind of favorable treatment by default.
Just like Wiz said, Stewart ain't getting to 100 fights. She's never had more than 6 fights is a single season. She'd have to fight for 10 more years to even get there and we don't think she'll stay with FS for that long.
We believe the adjustment was made to outlaw Thorne and Lavigne who are on pace to reach 100 fights within the next three-four years. Yes, that's Mr. V objective opinion  |
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Post by Tractorpull on Dec 7, 2018 12:10:15 GMT -6
Tess Valmore
Once again pre-conceived ideas. I didn’t bet against Biel because she was winning Theron is my favorite and she certainly didn’t get that treatment
I used Stewart as an example of a fighter who has halfway to the 100 mark with an 85% win ration as an example what would not be allowed into the Hall of Fame
Let me tell you right now. I am not a big fan of Thorne and Lavigne due there post fight behaviot, but at this time Bella is fighting a pretty good schedule and should she eventually reach the 100 fight mark and the 60% win ratio, she will be welcomed into the Hall. The quality of Lavigne’s opponents is not as good as those of Thorne. It’s just to early to say one way or the other. If she picks up in the quality of opponents and meats the standard. she will get in. Whether I like a fighter or not has no bearing on if they get into the Hall
Now I have said, all I am going to say to you Rant all you want. We are done
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Post by Vassago on Dec 7, 2018 12:16:59 GMT -6
I'm not ranting, I call it as I see it. Avril's post-fight antics fall into the Gena Lee Nolin DQ territory already and Bella has numerous JMD fights on her resume already. This is only set to increase and make her a complete wash-out in terms of Hall of Fame. Both these girls are the most active by far this year and both have two strikes against what Tess Valmore hates the most. What's the point of denying it?
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Big Bad Gena Lee Nolin
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Post by Big Bad Gena Lee Nolin on Dec 7, 2018 13:36:46 GMT -6
"... should she eventually reach the 100 fight mark and the 60% win ratio, she will be welcomed into the Hall" ... don't you believe it! See, the "Hall of Sham" CLAIMS these are the requirements but I am here to tell you, they are not! Because if they were, if you met them, you'd be "welcomed into the Hall" and that's bull shot! Its all politics and a friggin' popularity contest!
Look, a lot of people don't like me ... boo-f*ckin-hoo. But check my record? How many times was I DQ'd by a ref? How many times was I even warned? I make no apologies ... I come to fight ... and I recognize it's not some sorority pillow fight!
You don't like me? Fine, I got enough fans! You think I'm a dirty fighter? Get yourself a German Shepherd and a white cane - you're blind! But don't set up this phony Hall of fame with so called strict "requirements" and then slam the door on real fighters who meet those requirements because you don't like their style.
And I understand Tess Valmore is taking boxing lessons from Theron? I might be willing to teach her a few things myself.
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Post by jennymccarthy on Dec 7, 2018 13:57:56 GMT -6
I would like to add that since it is a Hall of FAME - that popular and famous fighters should be in - such as say for example, a particular girl was recognized as the greatest fighting Playmate of all time ... she should get in!
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